A discussion between wizards; A look at the creation of gods, the pursuite of truth, and our subjective feelings of trees.

THE OM GODDESS!!

Next year you must attend

I got back and saw your posts about druidic drumming and just smiled

So the Om goddess is nature herself?

danu and such

guess its just something i should experience

like all great things

yes

its hard to explain, without just rambling on or giving me anxiety that i'm bragging about it etc

but its just a really great place that i know you'd appreciate for many many reasons

the photographs i got this year are much better / tell a better story

so i'll link you when i post them

cool

Though i'm a pretty easy going guy when wrapping my head around spiritual deities formed from common beliefs and good vibes

shared beliefs are a powerful thing when wrapped in music made to trip you out and then amplified by acid

and other psychotics

indeed

some have said that psychedelic culture / music festivals can be defined as a religion

or atleast a spirituality... now if someone writes a book about it

there has been

there's some videos too

trying to remember the name

does a religion necessarily have to have a divine being as it's centre

there is usually something such as the holy spirit, chi, mana, and some kind of leader

Buddha, Jesus, Mohamed

i guess the psychedelic culture one sort of surrounds the ideas of "energy" and "Vibes"

like, having a negative energy

etc

yes

or the realness of the hallucinations

that perception is reality

hell i've talk to animals

thats why i call myself a druid

and trees and pinecones

doctors call it psychosis i call it magic of my imagination

Take my pinecone neal for instance

i gave him a name called wulfgar, and well he really liked it and such

anyway i was throwing him around bouncing him off my hands and i damaged him a bit

so i asked him are you defined by what you look like or how you think

long story short he releaized what it meant to be alive, apart yet distinct from nature around him

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Magical_thinking

and he gave himself a new name

niel

long story short i was tripping out a pinecone extensionally

while learning more about myself

as the pinecone is part of me

as we are both part of nature

Sigmund Freud believed that magical thinking was produced by cognitive developmental factors. He described practitioners of magic as projecting their mental states onto the world around them, similar to a common phase in child development

i project my mental state of wanting a more connected world with nature

thus i make it

so i suppose i feel lonely

Yes, but it also says it's a causal fallacy

which is normal getting out of a long term relationship

which a cause is incorrectly identified.

indentifed?

what does it mean by that

so something has lost a defination?

it means, there's a disconnection

like trying to decipher where the rain drops will fall

its just random

there's no reason for it

but then someone says

I know where they will fall. Because of my magical thinking!

And it's like no bro, thats a causal fallacy

well I suppose a physicist could

but i mean he cant just know

hes gotta do his magic number stuff

they'd probably be holding to a theory

and practising it

Ah so i should make a theory and test it

yes, such as

can a pinecone give itself a name that a human can understand or interpret

or is it a causal fallacy between your thoughts and feelings that relates to the magical thinking attributed to the pinecone

we as human beings have an innate connection to all forms of life. Either through dialog or reading facial cues. Humans can also pick up on vibes from trees and other animals then translate them into words

can you define vibes?

feelings

of a non-expressive type

so, like this?

Noun
An emotional state or reaction.
The emotional side of someone's character; emotional responses or tendencies to respond.

yes

so

we as human beings have an innate connection to all forms of life. Either through dialog or reading facial cues. Humans can also pick up on emotional states or reactions from trees and other animals then translate them into words

Trees do not have emotions

no they have vibes

But I thought vibes were feelings

unless feelings are uniquely human and can be read easier

Vibes is an undefinable expression attributed to things that have no physical space in reality

It is YOUR feeling

Not the trees.

My feeling for the tree yes

Yes, so it's not the tree having an emotional reaction. It is your emotional reaction, to witnessing the tree.

Therefore, no. Humans do not pick up on the emotional reactions of trees. They pick up on their own - and translate it into words.

yes and a shaper of nature i can then act on said feeling

agreed

So the tree is communicating nothing.

It is merely existing

other then being itself

its kinda like an echo

It is purely your reaction to it, that is causing it to have a name. It has no name, or ability to communicate a name to you.

Yes then i either spread such name to other humans or let the tree have a more free perception to all of humanity

thus getting more thoughts on said tree

well all the thoughts have been added up with some equation then perhaps we have the feeling of said tree

or the collective human perspective of said tree

or small group how ever many people you can get

then dealing in perspective is reality it falls into place

still one person has the start such thinking

and we dont have to go tree by tree

we can do forest

birds

ect.

until such point where say dolphins say they are individuals and can make their own perspective.

then we start all over

around and around

just like our beautiful earth

slowly waiting for all life to gain perspective and want to share it

There's nothing wrong with giving a tree a name. What turns people off is saying the Tree was the one who decided it, or communicated it to you.

true unless you are trying to get attention for said unknown cause

waiting for people to come with an actual argument

i enjoy your logic wizard

Yes, but what use is attention for attention's sake

What are you being compensated?

Often, those who want attention for attention's sake are doing it for some kind of gain. Like Paris Hilton, for money.

I suppose it strengthens my faith. Paris has faith in herself. I have faith in nature

so the question i should ask people

is what do you think that tree feels?

most would say nothing

which is true

its a tree it doesn;t give a shit

Heh, I would ask you what your definition of "feel' is

Only then could I make a proper answer

perhaps sense is a better word

A faculty by which the body perceives an external stimulus; one of the faculties of sight, smell, hearing, taste, and touch.

sense then analyses of said tree

so one could say that tree has spray paint on it

that is not its normal state

someone did that to the tree

to make his mark

who would care more the tree or the human?

the human

we rip up the rain forest

the trees life is threatened who would care more?

the trees

and the humans

thus we do both

try to protect it and kill it

Though perhaps then when faith comes into play

and trees always care more then humans

human are self loathing self destructive hurtful beings who sometimes fuck and love when they want to. Trees just live and care for what they do. I would say a tree is more noble then a human. Much more useful then average human, and closer to the divine by just being a tree

so yeah you can feel what a tree feels by using your senses on said tree and then analyzing your feelings. If you do this collectively you can bring it from the subjective to the objective

One perception isn't reality collective perception is

So can perception be shared and then formulated in some equation?

to give one perception

No, but perception being non-communicable in some respects does not change reality in any way whatsoever

such as music

I can't communicate what my red looks like compared to your blue, so maybe they look the same to us, but that has zero bearing on reality

none

hmm well the conversation i was having with craig was can a tree have feelings?

can we sense the trees feelings

can communcaite and share it

almost certainly they cannot have feelings

its my feelings for said tree

and you have a feeling for the tree

and no, we cannot use any sort of magic emotion-sensing

exactly

you can feel things about a rock

but that's all in your head

the rock has no involvement in that

and different people will tell you different things

yes but what if i want to pull something out of the subjective to the objective

doesn't work that way

subjective things aren't objective by definition

and can't be

that's the very meaning of that concept

oh i see

so my feeling is subjective

yes

and your feeling of the tree is subjective

100%

whether or not the tree has a nervous system is 100% objective

well what happens when we pool our thoughts on said tree

pool?

what

with who

how

like share our thoughts

and why does a bunch of people agreeing prove anything

just a circle jerk...

if a million people say that Thunderstruck is a good song

and I'm sure they do

that doesn't make that any less subjective

I'm sure a million people think it's terrible

so what we are left with is collectively it is average

no

wrong

it doesn't work that way

you can't just average them like they're numbers

because there

isn

is no right answer

the idea of a right answer doesn't even make sense in that context

but what if we are making a song

collectily

you're making a subjective thing

go ahead

almost impossible

but don't pretend it's objectively anything

so what i feel subjectively is correct for me

yes, but don't get it mixed up with facts

unless im thinking in some form of fallacy

your opinions aren't automatically right because you feel them

keep that in mind

you have the right to feel however you want, but that does not mean it's real or correct

at one point in my life I had vivid hallucinations, auditory and mental

I thought my neighbors could hear my thoughts

and even though I believed it will all my heart

and I acted on the "knowledge" that it was true

and 100% was certain of it

it was false

and it when I believed it, it wasn't true

the only thing that was ever true was that "I believed that they could hear my thoughts"

my problem is slightly different i believe i can talk to trees and other forms of nature as i think of them as part of me being a creature in nature. So when i talk to a tree im just talking to myself.

and hey that's fine

you may believe whatever you wish

for whatever reasons you want

but then i start to feel for the trees that are all messed up by humans

and I don't *know* for a fact that you're wrong either

but I don't believe you

so i ask myself how can i objectively feel for a tree

feelings aren't objective

but I mean

senses are though

it's objectively true THAT you are feeling them

do you understand the distinction I am making?

and you can analyses senses

kinda not really in an objective way but we're working on it yeah

Yes i can feel that is objective but the feelings are subjective

yes

such is the way of the world

so even if we had a database for every song or forest with everyones feelings for said thing on it. This still doesn't make perception reality?

no, absolutely not

okay look

what if some

alien life form came here

would they agree?

almost certainly not

they might not even

be made of solid matter

they could be like

or communicate in our way of thinking

gaseous silicon who communicate through heat waves

so no

everyone agreeing doesn't make something objective

even if everyone, ever, forever agreed

2 hours ago

well they are growing does that count as moving?

so perhaps if they grow their roots in a direction they can move

Red for connections that should and should not be made..

FreeeMason

Your making a distinction between the choice of movement and not, well actually the aware choice.

And im talking about mathematical movement like a ball falling down the stairs

but as a side notes, trees do move towards light, roots to water.

But if the life of a trr was lets say 5 min

and you where standing ontop

what would happen?

The black oak poisons the ground around it, only when other trees are around. Some plants only produce toxins when certain beetles are on them

Oh

how bout this for revolutionary nature paradime shift. Prairie dogs talk.

http://www.cbc.ca/news/technology/story/2013/06/21/science-prairie-dog-language-decoded.html

and not only that, they have words for things like circle

Wow that's so cool. These little guys can say so much with one chirp

So trees in away communicate with chemicals

When we cut grass the smell is the a chemical it releases to attract bugs that would eat bugs that eat grass. Unfortunately what they get is a giant metal death machine

FreeeMason

lol

the difference is that trees dont have choice as far as we know

not really

well if your an absolutist neither do you

But im not one so its a moot point

FreeeMason

lol, well an absolutist view only applies when all info is known. Its possible that both a "soul" and science come together possibly we are 5d beings thinking on a 4d scale

whats the 4d?

soul?

FreeeMason

4th is one d of time

5th is physical

where the science of whatever the soul is exist

but we could exist in all 5 without knowing, only seeing the 3 and falling through the 4th

and 5 just is

so a 5th d being would see in 4th

FreeeMason

nooo not really not see

because d's dont have to be space

it could be time

direction of time

and whatever we dont know about

so maybe even choice

like think of time as a D that you have no sight of and cant really feel but its an river always running in one direction

you sit still it moves in one direction pretty consistently but

it can get really funky

the 5th we have no idea bout

but what im saying is

all these things or allot of them, like the heart being the organ of love, and hate. Or the soul, or ghosts, or mind reading.

I'm saying there is a God he lives in the 5d and he can predict movement in the 4d with an equation as we would predict movement in 2d or 3d

FreeeMason

Can happen with science, if we actually occupy 5D at all time and simply do not know it. What if you have organs that only exist in that 5th d

how would you ever know

or even just what if the brain and heart are partially in that D

or the Jungian theory of global unconsciousness

FreeeMason

yea thats easy to explain with this extra "plane"

So i think even in absolutist views there is a difference between Choices A the ones made by trees as result of programming and Choices B ones of free will

see you dont have to be smart to have free will

So perhaps the shared mind is part of the 5d thus the subjective become objective at least in 5d?

as we could know for sure what is truth

truth for that one person's perspective then when added up we have a collective human perspective of say a tree. Thus we have the humans collective thoughts and feelings of said tree

Perhaps going back to perspective is reality and only knowing our persecptive it would be safe to assume that this tree now has these feelings and thoughts attached to it. Until the point where it can form its own perspective

FreeeMason

Yes exactly! Fucking right. It could mean there IS truth. not simply a collection of senses generating a perceived truth.

well morso

that some of it is truth, and that truth is definable

some of it is simply the perceived truth.

So right now you cant know if that tree thinks really its assumed no, philosophically you can argue yes but practically and logically

you assume no

Once we learn of this 5th d.

well what if what i make up in my head is the truth

of said tree

FreeeMason

it could mean we define what choice really is, it could mean we have some sort of unique ness to us Ie the soul or it could be that choice is nothing but a computer on the other end of a wire we cant see

and there is multiple truths

FreeeMason

Absolute and objective

so while physicists try to unite the theories we should unite the truths

FreeeMason

ahh

but the only way we could do this is if we know the certain the person is speaking the truth of his or her perspective

FreeeMason

the issue is we cant figure out which of our theorys about truth are ""true"" until we come to a conclusion on our idea of truth

So for me, what they say is never what they mean.

Joseph Chu makes a good point You should look into Dark Matter and Dark Energy, because they are the invisible stuff that makes up most of the universe.

I say people on Acid or mushrooms have come to know their truth

FreeeMason

I always look for why they said it and want they want not what they said.So not what the exprienced but as close to what actually happened as possible.

I assume most people dont intend to lie

they just know no better

blame not the young for they know not what they do

young not being only your age

FreeeMason

Yes, and the assumption being we are all young

Just to different degrees

So i may be older for i have walked this path and it ages me, others have other knowledge that i do not attain from my path but does not age them

I also believe that one of the things i attain from this path is a sort of higher awareness of self

so i need to be accountable to myself for my actions

but they are in no means, for the most part accountable to me

I also have some views about death

that are different

i don't think your the real you until you die

before that your just the process that grows you

i like that

FreeeMason

thus we are all young until we die

its an active birth

FreeeMason

then we have officially become who we are

and have no will to change it

perhaps

lol

i think we can change it

death is only the beginning

or rather

we combine with others whom we like

and share interests and that changes us

FreeeMason

true but the who we are of this world at least

as we slowly become one

FreeeMason

this world being the subjective world

the only truth we can know is the truth we make

FreeeMason

Yes sir, youtube alan watts

hours of his stuff

yeah i have

FreeeMason

are amazing

yea your just talking allot like him

like i keep being reminded of him

a spiritual entertainer as he calls himself

FreeeMason

my fav point he made i don't know what video. but he had just left the city for a few months in the forest

and he talks about how nature, wiggles.

its always moving

and we

build solid straight lines

squares and such.

not always

FreeeMason

gird and triangles and still shapes but all of nature is moving together they giddier they fidget.

just recently as its more efficient

FreeeMason

Exactly, we got caught up in it and it took over our mind its how we think how we build, code, balance

but nature, she just jitters all the time never forgetting to move somewhere

but that implies that she is thinking about it, it nature is not thinking about doing this she just is

Nature is the only thing that doesn't die in this constant cycle of death she keeps us in

FreeeMason

ooh

well that i would disagree with

you NEED to read the sandmand series

its comics

get it in paper back or on your phone

but the paperbacks are worth it. give it the first 4 comics

it focuses on gods

and what they are

and what happens when people stop thinking about gods

or giving to them

And then 8 characters called the endless

these are things that exist personified only in the subjective reality but they have force none the less

when people start[stop] thinking of gods the lose their power and eventually fall to mortality if they were an animal or a river or blink away from existence

FreeeMason

Exactly

Gods can be created through collective thoughts in a common belief and "vibes"

such as the Om goddess